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Viss tā arī ir, izņemot pēdējos 2 teikumus. https://twitter.com/savlocal/status/1354727594202173441?s=28Un paskaties uz Jaunzēlandi. Viņi iznīdēja vīrusu pilnībā, bet tagad valsts ir slēgta iebraucējiem, un turpināšot būt slēgta līdz pat gada beigām. Svarīgi ir saprast, ka Kariņš murgo un nekāda strauja atgriešanās "normalitātē" nav gaidāma. Visu vēl tikai pasliktina arī vakcinēšanās tempu lēnums, problēmas ar piegādēm utml...
Tfu, tas ir izņemot šos divus teikumus.
"Un šis turpināsies tik ilgi, cik viņi grib. Varbūt līdz brīdim, kad būsim gatavi drošajai jaunajai pasaulei."
There is a scene in Better Call Saul in which the older brother tears his house to bits in an effort to find the cause of a troubling sensation (which could have been in his mind).
Bet nav svarīgs manuprāt. Nekas nemainīsies pat tad, kad tauta tiks vakcinēta.
Watch New Zealand. Tas ir skats uz nākotni. ;)
Es tagad iešu uz veikalu pēc Riga Black Balsam. Jā, to es te varēju pasūtīt, un to man atved zviedru valsts monopola veikalā. Pohui jūsu lokdauni un mājsēdes! =)
![[User Picture]](http://klab.lv/userpic/171589/1842) | | From: | ![[info]](http://klab.lv/img/userinfo.gif) ulvs |
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| Date: | January 28th, 2021 - 03:09 pm |
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| | | (Link) |
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Protams, ka visiem nākotnē būs tāda ģeogrāfiska priekšroka kā New Zealand.
Es nerunāju par to. Points ir tajā, ka viņiem jātur robežas stingri ciet, kamēr covid vispār kaut kur vēl ir, neskatoties uz to, ka uz viņu salas vīrusa vairs nav. Tobiš, arī tad ja 3 mēnešos novakcinēs visus Latvijas iedzīvotājus, ierobežojumi turpināsies (kaut kādā mērā un formā), kamēr covid nebūs izskausts globāli.
draugs, cilvēki saņems savas vakcīnas un pēc tam dosies ielās, sūtot naher visas tālākās teorijas
vismaz es tā darīšu, un es ieteiktu tā rīkoties arī tev un tavai ģimenei
Pat ja gribētu sekot ierobežojumiem, es nevaru, jo es vairs nezinu kas tie ir. Tikai gribētu braukt uz angliju lai paciemot vecākus, kamēr viņi dzīvi.
Un baidos, ka būs ļoti grūti brīvi darīt ko gribam pēc vakcīnas - neskatoties ko Tu (vai es) domā par šādiem teorijām.
1) nu, paliec viesnīcā 10 dienas, ko vēl iesākt šādā situācijā
2) ir ļoti iluzoriski baidīties no tā, ka viņi var noturēt miljonus cilvēku. viņi arī holandē nupat pakaroja ar karantīnas pretiniekiem, šobrīd vienkārši par curfew.
1) Šaubos, ka es varu atļauties (berni arī būs tur jāpaliec).
2) Nenoturēs miljonus cilvēkus. Tā vietā, ierobežos iespējas uz turieni braukt.
Noturēšanai palīdzēs totalitārismam simpatizējoši kolaboracionisti/denuncianti, kuri steigsies ziņot un palīdzēt varas iestādēm savaldīt visus brīvdomīgos. To jau var labi redzēt pat no ievērojamas daļas cibas posteriem. Kad paši cilvēki sāk sevi kontrolēt/cenzēt, all bets are off.
'To jau var labi redzēt pat no ievērojamas daļas cibas posteriem'. Tu domā ka Cibnieki sevi cenzē šajā jautājumā?
![[User Picture]](http://klab.lv/userpic/171742/11143) | | From: | gnidrologs |
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| Date: | January 28th, 2021 - 03:00 pm |
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| | the spirit of Pavlik Morozov | (Link) |
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Dusmīgi apsauc "konspirācijteoristus" un paštaisni rāj tos, kas akli nepakļaujas katram jaunam brīvību ierobežojumam. The Gubermint only wants our safety, but the population dares to act like foolish buffoons for questioning them.>:[
![[User Picture]](http://klab.lv/userpic/156433/18428) | | From: | brookings |
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| Date: | January 28th, 2021 - 03:15 pm |
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| | Re: the spirit of Pavlik Morozov | (Link) |
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Domāju, ka nav daudz tādu cilvēku Cibā. Varbūt bija. Tagad man ir tāda sajūta, ka Cibnieki lielākoties klusē vai raksta par citām priecīgākām lietām (kas ir saprotami).
| | From: | gnidrologs |
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| Date: | January 28th, 2021 - 04:10 pm |
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| | Re: the spirit of Pavlik Morozov | (Link) |
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Kognitīvā disonanse nav viegla lieta, tāpēc nerunā daudz, bet kā būs kārtējie incidenti, tā atkal parādīs sava īstās sejas. Tas pats notiek, ka parādās infa par kārtējo big tech cenzūru vai policejisku politisko oponentu iegrožošanu - this ilk is cheering and salivating, but after short while memory holes the whole issue like good insectoids they are.
| | From: | brookings |
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| Date: | January 28th, 2021 - 06:13 pm |
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| | Re: the spirit of Pavlik Morozov | (Link) |
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the digitalisation of society: bad people with bad opinions vs good people with good opinions.
![[User Picture]](http://klab.lv/userpic/171958/44369) | | From: | mranarhs |
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| Date: | January 28th, 2021 - 03:31 pm |
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| | Re: the spirit of Pavlik Morozov | (Link) |
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Un kādas tieši ir tavas pretenzijas? Tu gribi kādu te cenzēt?
> Essentially, the inability of people to wonder about what else might be going on here
What *might* be going on is a phase space. Please consider the concept.
Does your consideration of inability to wonder includes consideration of wondering about what would happen, if governments *didn't* try to impose restrictions to try to limit the extent of disease?
Let us presume (just for a moment!) that the virus is real, and that while it is by far not as lethal as bubonic plague or typhoid fever, it IS easy to catch and the rate of outcomes are let's say just 5x worse than a typical flu infection. And I don't mean just death rates (which are 10x higher than typical flu), but crippling possibilities and chronic effects (like diminished lung capacity), which will weigh down on a person for the rest of his life.
So. If the government does nothing, what happens? Significant part of people sure do get over it. However, you can't say in advance, which ones would those be. And those who are ill, do frequently need to be in hospitals to try to manage the covid, even if they are not all the time at risk of immediate death.
Now, as I wrote earlier to you, I don't know the situation in the UK, but in Latvia [as we discussed earlier] there are only so many hospital beds for all possible causes. If covid beds increase the load on health system, it's not as if it has much to spare -- many other patients will go untreated at high loads, until their situation becomes critical, too.
Of course, we can always blame somebody for the poor state of health system, however, at the moment it is the way it is. There is no magic wand to train 1000 doctors and nurses immediately and persuade them to work right now and right here. Without which 1000 new hospital beds, which are easy to procure, will mean nothing.
Are all the restrictions made in good faith and are useful? Probably not. But I would go more towards lack of competence and experience than towards nefarious all-encompassing purposes. At least in case of Latvia. It would be very hard to keep these things secret.
At any rate, my usual question in discussions like this, is:
I know what would convince me it is a global conspiracy (on the order of something much more than the usual politics, which have been going on during the past thousands of years). My own eyewitness evidence of intentions -- overheard conversations, access to leaked documents[about which I can be reasonably sure they haven't been faked], things like that.
How about you? What kind of evidence would invite you to reconsider your opinion [and possibly lower your opinion of government institutions]?
[ Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<let [...] (just>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.] okay, let's have a stroll around the park (with or without mask).
1) <<Let us presume (just for a moment!) that the virus is real, and that while it is by far not as lethal as bubonic plague or typhoid fever, it IS easy to catch and the rate of outcomes are let's say just 5x worse than a typical flu infection. And I don't mean just death rates (which are 10x higher than typical flu), but crippling possibilities and chronic effects (like diminished lung capacity), which will weigh down on a person for the rest of his life.>>
I think it is real, so I don't have to presume too hard. Regarding death rates, though, I agreed with you when you advised focussing on all-cause mortality, which shows what it shows for Latvia and the UK. The reason for this - I presume - was because so many deaths put down as Covid might not really be Covid deaths in the way we normally think about say cancer deaths being due to cancer. If you tested positive in hospital in the UK, and you died of late-stage cancer within a 28-day period, you were marked down as a Covid stat. I don't believe this happens for flu. I mean people don't, I believe, get tested for having the flu, and then if they die within 28 days of late-stage cancer, get marked down as a flu death (I might be wrong about that). So I will have to do some quite hard presuming to go along with your description of its degree of fatality. But I can do it if you like.
<<So. If the government does nothing, what happens? >>
Firstly, I wouldn't advise doing nothing. I would recommend education about the risks, allocation of N95 respirators for risk groups (it's my understanding they actually help), state-sponsored encouragement for healthy outdoor living, maybe free Vitamin D3 and Zinc for risk groups, subsidies to compensate workers who are in a risk group for being unable to work, and so on. If possible, diversion of funds from less-important areas to the health sector, too.
Secondly, there is a lot of interesting data about states in the US that chose different strategies (North and South Dakota, Florida and California). We also have Sweden, who are doing worse than Norway and Finland (so far - it might all balance out in the end), but much better than countries with strict lockdowns in Europe.
I have no disagreement with the argument about the health system's capacity. If you don't want to argue/discuss who is to blame, I won't do it. I would just add this. The utter vandalism of the national economy will result in it being near impossible to build up a health system that will be able to deal with similar viruses in the future, which means ... well what?
Maybe one more point about the hospitals and the reporting of the situation. I have seen throughout all of this the media drawing out the most fear-inducing hysterical angles possible, which means I don't take what they report at face value anymore. If they had a kripatinja of on-the-one-hand x, on-the-other-hand y objectivity, I would be more considerate of what they report. By the way, SAGE in the UK advocated this fear-mongering to be part of actual government policy.
So, the Latvian Government. Pavluts is in charge, and in his vaccine team we have some of the brigade who introduced the Euro. If there is such a thing as a Soros-Globalist, Pavluts is it: just look at his bio.
If this is a suprantional-level scheme to have us tagged and bagged, denuded of financial independence, subject to intrusive annual vaccinations, floating downstream in a supranational central bank digital currency in a bankrupted nation-state, it wouldn't be hard to hide it. No official media would report it, only a few would even need to know about it, Latvia's inteligensia are too worried about displaying wrongthink to mutter dissent in public.
About evidence that this is just incompetence? Maybe it would involve letting us get back to as much normality as possible. Maybe it would involve some respectable Latvian politicians saying 'you know what, we can't continue like this'. Maybe seeing real journalists ask questions about the problems with PCR tests? I don't know. Who knows - maybe I am a lost cause.
| From: | formica |
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| Date: | January 28th, 2021 - 06:19 pm |
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| | different strategies | (Link) |
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> I think it is real, so I don't have to presume too hard. Regarding death rates, though, I agreed with you when you advised focussing on all-cause mortality, which [..] have to do some quite hard presuming to go along with your description of its degree of fatality. But I can do it if you like.
Yes, thank you. Because in that discussion I also later on wrote about another cause of *why* maybe the death rates are not as high yet, as they potentially could.
Namely, that people got treated in hospitals, and thus hospitals were able to absorb plenty of cases which might turn into death cases otherwise. I mean, why would people otherwise go to hospitals in the first place?
Which brings up my point about hospital system capacity. And the need to maintain hospital load below maximum. And here we have a potential for different views, because I think that just as you argue that economy is deeply bad off due to covid restrictions (which is self-evidently true), the economy would be in tatters if the covid was allowed to roam freely. And we wouldn't have the mortality rates as they have been in 2020, but something much worse, and much more disabilities in people who survive.
As regards your opinion of what should be done with restrictions, I am afraid we are neither of us qualified to propose the best solutions. So I am afraid my opinion is that we simply have to rely on people who are either epidemiologists or are at least following the measures and their effects in other countries much more closely than I (and I presume also you) have had the time to do.
[continued, as my comment was too long]
I agree that media are quite bad about covid, but that has been unfortunately true about most of the crises since media had start to fight for readership vs social networks. Objectivity has gone out of the window and now it is much more about positioning and providing echo chambers for their audiences. There are certain remnants of objectivity, but they seem few and far between.
That said, tvnet, delfi and lsm (state media!) do report news about claims that people have died after taking covid vaccines; if you scroll through lsm covid news you can see articles about side effects that vaccine may cause, about health professionals who didn't want to innoculate, etc.
> If there is such a thing as a Soros-Globalist
There isn't. Do you honestly believe that there exist people in Latvia who wholeheartedly care about some globalist agenda? All that crap is just next level of name-calling, same as the other way round talking about nationalists, reactionaries and automatically considering Trump supporting people dumb. It is just a fundamental us-and-them ape society thing with virtue signaling.
> denuded of financial independence
Funny you should say it. Because we don't have actual financial independence and haven't had since maybe 1930ies. Our financial system is deeply dependent on the US, as evidenced by the speed with which Ministry of Finance is pushing through anti-laundering laws, as per request of the US Department of Treasury. But we are NOT unique in this respect, AT ALL. It is the fate of most small countries, and the US is currently the global money power. A delicate position, but not something that needs any supranational conspiracy. It is perfectly US-national one, and the only players who have enough clout to deal with it are larger countries. But the price of disrupting existing economies (even for larger countries) is so high, that I believe the US will continue to wield this power for some time.
> it wouldn't be hard to hide it. No official media would report it, only a few would even need to know about it,
But we have no official media. Or rather, we are not getting majority of our news through them. We have a number of news portals who are in no way official (tvnet, delfi, apollo) and wouldn't really care to be censored -- I mean they would probably cause quite a stir, and they are not locally owned. I mean, 5-10 years ago, the government couldn't really do anything about Lemberg's owned newspapers, has something changed in their powers that now they can shut up media as they wish? Tbh I doubt it very much.
But more importantly, "few would even need to know about it" - now you got me. So you think everybody in government and business circles is a retard, who just agrees to any measures government proposes because they don't know any better? Our government can't even make a change in VAT rates without howling of various interest groups and without having their hands slapped every now and then, and now everybody agrees because they can't do anything about it?
I find it quite extraordinary. And, as Carl Sagan wrote, "extraordinay claims require extraordinary evidence" .
P.S. Not to speak about that it is not only our media who could be quite vocal about it. What would Russian media give for whiff of conspiracy (granted they are not interested much in Latvia, but then again we are talking about supranational conspiracies, not some local muddled affair)! It would be all over the news there, out for everybody who cares to listen.
just a couple of quick points as I am off to bed in a bit.
You misunderstood (I didn't make it clear) my point about 'denuded of financial independence'. Here I am talking about individuals unable to earn money - not the state. the state is in debt - even more now, of course, but I would never make the point that it is independent - as it clearly isn't.
"If there is such a thing as a Soros-Globalist" - there is. You are, I am quite sure, wrong about that. The thing is, I taught above the Soros Hall at SSE for 6 years. I know Vjačelavs D and the young student who was set up to start a Left-wing group in LV a while back. He even tried to get me involved. I used to work in that Birojnica. I saw who came in and who went and held events and recorded parts to the camera. I am pretty sure I got 4 from 2+2. I may be many things, but I am not blind. It doesn't matter to me if you think I am wrong. I know what I have seen and heard, so I am pretty immovable on this one.
Other than that, I would ask you to consider the evidence that strict lockdowns don't actually help (or help much). Take a look at the info in the US states, or between European countries who pursued different policies. I think this data will show that your assertion we would be in an even worse financial state if we had not imposed these kinds of restrictions is conjecture.
What else? 'few would even need to know about it'- yeah absolutely. Think about the banking system as an example. How many people know about that really works? How many people who do know are ready to say anything about it? I'm thinking of the guy doing his masters after the crisis (I was helping him with his English) who said to me his career would be over if he talked about the real nature of the banking system. It took me 2 hours to get an ex-student at SSE who was a chief economist at a bank to confirm my understanding was correct, basically. It isn't even taught in the syllabus. My mate who did PPE at Oxford said it was a small part of the curriculum at PHD level. I rather imagine the political class just go along with whatever is perceived as the accepted wisdom. They know what happens to them if they stop reading from the song sheet, too: they will get targeted like Gobzems. Of course, many will think what we are doing is more or less correct: we need to impose strict restrictions, we need to vaccinate, and if there are new strains, we should impose more restrictions and on and on and on. They will only change their tune if their feathers get ruffled by mass demonstrations - which might - just might be in the offing.
> "If there is such a thing as a Soros-Globalist" - there is. You are, I am quite sure, wrong about that.
Now you're talking. Personal experience and personal evidence is much more impressive than any internet publication. I have had personal dealings with SSE public, so I am interested.
> It doesn't matter to me if you think I am wrong.
You certainly can be wrong, but not neccessarily are. The untenous position that I am trying to occupy is being skeptical, but not implicitly dismissive of any arguments and evidence. When we are able to do personal meetings again, then we'll be able to discuss this, if you are up to it.
Vai tu nepiekrīti pašam "globālisma" konceptam vai, ka Soross būtu par tādu uzskatāms, vai arī, ka arī starp latviešiem ir šī kluba biedri?
Tas ir jautājums, uz ko es nevaru ātri atbildēt ar jā/nē; jo man būtu jāsaka "BET".
You could also view it using an argument that you have made well in our discussions, namely that Latvia is a small country whose independence is conditional to say the least. I agree with you, by the way. Latvia has no real financial independence and is a small voice in the EU. It would be, therefore, in a very weak position if it chose to buck the global currents - be it in how the 4th Industrial Revolution is implemented, or how the global (or European citizenry) is managed (as in Tony Blair's recommendation for a global vaccine passport scheme through the G7).
These decisions will roll over Latvia like the weather. It will just be assumed that this is the way we are going, and this is how we have to adjust. Those opposing it will just be dismissed as idiot Luddites.
The 'shadowy figures' pushing for these policies could be found among the members of the WEF, for example. The members (about 1,000) are major corporations, banks etc that each have more than five billion dollars in turnover. Just on a non-conspiracy level, they have enormous lobbying power on the European Commission - for example, far more than small indebted nation states. The Gates foundation, through its funding also has enormous influence on the WHO. What can the Latvia government do to stand against this? Nothing - even if they wanted to. None of this is extraordinary. It is just happening relentlessly and remorselessly.
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