Tas nav iztēles as increasingly abstract mental simulation blakusprodukts? At first you represent sth very basic and pictorial related to ur survival but then the higher order the representations become and the more removed from the immediate reality then eventually you will have intuitions about something whole and endless?

Bezgalības ideja? Nu neko, varbūt kādreiz tomēr nāksies atkāpties no dogmātisma un būs jāpaurbjas cauri 2500 gadu rietumu filozofijas vēsturei, kur bezgalība ir viens no galvenajiem tematiem.

Personīgi man šķiet, ka ārpus tīrās matemātikas (ar uzsvaru uz "tīrās", jo bezgalību empīriska eksistence joprojām ir ļoti atklāts jautājums) "domas par bezgalīgo" ir galvenokārt konceptuāla rotaļāšanās.

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Kāds ir "konceptuālas rotaļāšanās" evolucionāri bioloģiskais skaidrojums?

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Zinātkāre un iztēle (the latter being just a folksy word for conceptual and counterfactual modelling) kā adaptīvs pielāgojums. Attīstoties kognitīvajam aparātam, tas pats basic mehānisms, kas sākotnēji tika izmantots tādām lietām, kā teritorijas apzināšanai un briesmu laicīgai novērtēšanai, ir ieņēmis jaunus domēnus.

Complex machinery develops its own agendas. Brains – cheat. Feedback loops evolve to promote stable heartbeats and then stumble upon the temptation of rhythm and music. The rush evoked by fractal imagery, the algorithms used for habitat selection, metastasize into art. Thrills that once had to be earned in increments of fitness can now be had from pointless introspection. Aesthetics rise unbidden from a trillion dopamine receptors, and the system moves beyond modeling the organism. It begins to model the very process of modeling. It consumes ever-more computational resources, bogs itself down with endless recursion and irrelevant simulations. Like the parasitic DNA that accretes in every natural genome, it persists and proliferates and produces nothing but itself. Metaprocesses bloom like cancer, and awaken, and call themselves I.

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Jā, protams, Bahs, impresionisms un kabuki teātris - viss kaut kas līdzīgs vēzim, pointless un traucējošs "evolucionārajiem procesiem". Kurš normāls, vesels cilvēks buys ths shit.

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Mēģini tik ļoti nepārdzīvot.

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Vārdu sakot, a classical case of explaining away [things that are too complex and nuanced so just lets call them "irrelevant simulations" that produce "nothing but itself").

Pat ja pieņem šo vague spēli - nu labi, brains cheat. Nu un, kā šī cītošana "pointless introspection" ir skaidrojama evolucionāri bioloģiski? Why so much waste and pointlessness?

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Because evolution doesn't optimise for efficiency and doesn't do garbage collection. Because evolution works as adaptation-execution, not utility-maximisation.

Gar evolucionāro procesu malām uzkrājas t.s. spandrel characteristics, kas ir vai nu no sākotnējo domēnu (vides u.c. pārmaiņu dēļ) zaudējuši pielāgojumi, vai arī pielāgojumu blakusprodukti, kas paši nepilda izdevīgas funkcijas, bet, tajā pašā laikā, arī netraucē organismam nodot tālāk savu alēļu komplektu un, attiecīgi, saglabājas un piedzīvo savu, paralēlu, izmaiņu secību līdzi uz nākamajām paaudzēm. Nav izslēgts, ka gadījumā, ja šīs "fīčas" būtu vēl enerģētiski neizdevīgākas, tās arī būtu tikušas aizselektētas projām.

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Evolūciju reizēm sauc par optimizācijas algoritmu. Es zinu, no kurienes nāk tie termini, bet tavs otrais teikums attiecas uz individuālajiem organismiem, nevis uz evolūciju vispār.

Pārējais ir vienkārši spekulācija, just so story "es neredzu jēgu, tātad tās nav", explaining away.

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Evolūcija kā tāda ir optimizācijas algoritms šauri tehniskā nozīmē, tikai tur ir jāņem vērā tas, ko tā optimizē. Par pārējo – well, es esmu atvērts arī citām hipotēzēm.

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Kas attiecas uz "čītošanu", tad tas ir izplatīts ģenētisko algoritmu un citu constraint-satisfaction procesu darbības aspekts, ko izraisa šo procesu un to darba vides īpašību mijiedarbība. Relevants ekscerpts no N. Bostroma "Superintelligence":

Even simple evolutionary search processes sometimes produce highly unexpected results, solutions that satisfy a formal user-defined criterion in a very different way than the user expected or intended.

The field of evolvable hardware offers many illustrations of this phenomenon. In this field, an evolutionary algorithm searches the space of hardware designs, testing the fitness of each design by instantiating it physically on a rapidly reconfigurable array or motherboard. The evolved designs often show remarkable economy. For instance, one search discovered a frequency discrimination circuit that functioned without a clock—a component normally considered necessary for this function. The researchers estimated that the evolved circuit was between one and two orders of magnitude smaller than what a human engineer would have required for the task. The circuit exploited the physical properties of its components in unorthodox ways; some active, necessary components were not even connected to the input or output pins! These components instead participated via what would normally be considered nuisance side effects, such as electromagnetic coupling or power-supply loading.

Another search process, tasked with creating an oscillator, was deprived of a seemingly even more indispensible component, the capacitor. When the algorithm presented its successful solution, the researchers examined it and at first concluded that it “should not work.” Upon more careful examination, they discovered that the algorithm had, MacGyver-like, reconfigured its sensor-less motherboard into a makeshift radio receiver, using the printed circuit board tracks as an aerial to pick up signals generated by personal computers that happened to be situated nearby in the laboratory. The circuit amplified this signal to produce the desired oscillating output.

In other experiments, evolutionary algorithms designed circuits that sensed whether the motherboard was being monitored with an oscilloscope or whether a soldering iron was connected to the lab’s common power supply. These examples illustrate how an open-ended search process can repurpose the materials accessible to it in order to devise completely unexpected sensory capabilities, by means that conventional human design-thinking is poorly equipped to exploit or even account for in retrospect.

The tendency for evolutionary search to “cheat” or find counterintuitive ways of achieving a given end is on display in nature too, though it is perhaps less obvious to us there because of our already being somewhat familiar with the look and feel of biology, and thus being prone to regarding the actual outcomes of natural evolutionary processes as normal—even if we would not have expected them ex ante. But it is possible to set up experiments in artificial selection where one can see the evolutionary process in action outside its familiar context. In such experiments, researchers can create conditions that rarely obtain in nature, and observe the results.

(izcēlums mans)

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Nu, "doma par bezgalīgo" vispār nemaz nav tik bieža (nu vsm es īsti nevaru iztēloties kaut ko trū bezgalīgu)

Bet transcendentas idejas, domāju, var būt sociāli adaptīvas => uzlabo grupas fitnesu => win

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Varbūt tu nevar iztēloties neko trū bezgalīgi social conditioning un ideoloģiju dēļ?

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varbūt, vai tev ir evidence par cilvēkiem ar citu audzināšanu, kas var?

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Note to self: tumšā rudens vakarā staigājot, domas par to ir daudz vieglāk sasniedzamas, nekā sēžot ofisā.

In metaphysics, it is necessary to start from the idea that the
Supreme Reality is absolute, and that being absolute it is infinite. That is absolute which
allows of no augmentation or diminution, or of no repetition or division; it is therefore
that which is at once solely itself and totally itself. And that is infinite which is not
determined by any limiting factor and therefore does not end at any boundary; it is in the
first place Potentiality or Possibility as such, and ipso facto the Possibility of things,
hence Virtuality. Without All-Possibility, there would be neither Creator nor creation,
neither Maya nor Samsara.
The Infinite is so to speak the intrinsic dimension of plenitude proper to the Absolute; to
say Absolute is to say Infinite, the one being inconceivable without the other. We can
symbolize the relation between these two aspects of Supreme Reality by the following
images: in space, the absolute is the point, and the infinite is extension; in time, the
absolute is the moment, and the infinite is duration. On the plane of matter, the absolute
4
is the ether – the underlying and omnipresent primordial substance – whereas the infinite
is the indefinite series of substances; on the plane of form, the absolute is the sphere – the
simple, perfect and primordial form – and the infinite is the indefinite series of more or
less complex forms; finally, on the plane of number, the absolute will be unity or unicity,
and the infinite will be the unlimited series of numbers or possible quantities, or totality.
The distinction between the Absolute and the Infinite expresses the two fundamental
aspects of the Real, that of essentiality and that of potentiality; this is the highest
principial prefiguration of the masculine and feminine poles. Universal Radiation, thus
Maya both divine and cosmic, springs from the second aspect, the Infinite, which
coincides with All-Possibility.

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Un kā tie dindu hindu vārdu salāti ir domāti mums parādīt, ka evolucionāri your ass?

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Tas, ka evolucionāri my ass ir redzams pats par sevi, ja nav lobotomijas. Mb un Ctulhu naratīvsalāti to parāda vēl uzskatāmāk. Pat freidisms salīdzinājumā šķiet kaut kas eksakts.

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Tu baigi daudz paļaujies uz to, ka nostrādās tavs "huehue, ja tu man nepiekrīti tad tev ir lobotomija lol". Nekā draudziņ, freidisms šķiet kkas eksakts tieši salīdzinot ar tādiem savārstījumiem kā tavs šeit. Pats izdomāji vai norakstīji no kādas helēnas blavackas?

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Kāda starpība. Neviens taču tev neliek piekrist lol. Es to iepeistoju, jo likās relevants kāpēc cilvēkam ir interese par bezgalīgo. Ja labāk patīk scientistu naratīvistiskā skaidrošanas imitācija, godspeed.

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> In metaphysics, it is necessary to start from the idea

Necessary kam? Kas to paģēr? Man tas izskatās pēc is / ought sajaukuma.

Labāk paskaidro saviem vārdiem, kāda tā domā bija un kā tas vispār saistās ar tēmu par subj. pieredzi.

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Tikai tādā, ka subjektīvā pieredze nereti atspoguļo ilgošanos pēc absolūtā, kas ir visa avots. Rememberance. Meklēt visam izskaidrojumus evolucionārajā bioloģijā ir stumt karieti zirgam pa priekšu.

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